[BEC]

I think that it would make sense to get rid of the 1/2 weight for owner/driver/long standing crew and move to a single weight for the whole crew. Something close to 1,650 lbs. would seem to do the trick and simplify things. Checking what other owners think. Please voice an opinion. Thanks.

[jdougherty]

Agree. I also think we need to add an owner driver rule.

[FourScotts]

I agree as well.

Julien had some ideas on tightening up the helmsman rules as well. Getting bacK to the concept of owner/driver....

Take it away JD!

Stuart

[chuck tango]

BEC, on Sep 1 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

I think that it would make sense to get rid of the 1/2 weight for owner/driver/long standing crew and move to a single weight for the whole crew. Something close to 1,650 lbs. would seem to do the trick and simplify things. Checking what other owners think. Please voice an opinion. Thanks.

It is a 1/2 weight credit for the lightest owner/driver only when one of the owners is driving (not crew) and this is the reason I bought into the class and the reason my wife is not on the title. Most want to keep this an owner driven class and for anyone else to drive takes away the credit. While the class allows regular crew to steer the boat, there should not be an advantage. The owner has paid all the bills and should get the credit, not anyone else. What is the suggestion on adding an owner/drivers rule? (and who are you, BEC, a Cleveland owner? and which boat?) Thanks,
Chuck Tango #258

[jdougherty]

I don't have a lot of time to put in to this right now, as I need to prep for the Vineyard race but I will take a look at other classes owner / driver rules next week. I guess the question before us is do we want an owner driver rule? I know that we eliminated Cat3 drivers (except 100% owners) a few years ago because people did not think they could drive as well as Ploch or Smith. It now looks like the helmsman rule is written in such a way that a boat could have a starting helmsman, upwind helmsman and downwind helmsman. I don't necessarily think this is good for the class. Thoughts?

[Myouri II]

BEC, on Sep 1 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

I think that it would make sense to get rid of the 1/2 weight for owner/driver/long standing crew and move to a single weight for the whole crew. Something close to 1,650 lbs. would seem to do the trick and simplify things. Checking what other owners think. Please voice an opinion. Thanks.

You have my vote.

Paul

[BEC]

Hi Chuck,

Mark Cummings, Big Electric Cat out of Sandusky, OH. I'm not suggesting any change to the owner driver rule only that we get rid of the 1/2 weight rule as there was some confusion and potential for controversy. One weight for the whole crew gets rid of any question around "who was their 1/2 weight". There was some finger pointing going on at the regatta over the correct driver being used as half weight and we can eliminate and simplify the rule with a single weight for the entire crew. I suggested something around 1,650 lbs. and be done with it.

To be honest I'm fine with the long standing crew (Cat. 1) part of the deal but it seems "long standing crew" needs to be more clearly defined. I hope that clarifies what I am proposing. Thanks-Mark.

[TL 35367]

I am all for the strictly owner driver rule. And if we impliment it, there is no need to change the half weight credit for the driver.

[chuck tango]

BEC, on Sep 2 2009, 09:57 AM, said:

Hi Chuck,

Mark Cummings, Big Electric Cat out of Sandusky, OH. I'm not suggesting any change to the owner driver rule only that we get rid of the 1/2 weight rule as there was some confusion and potential for controversy. One weight for the whole crew gets rid of any question around "who was their 1/2 weight". There was some finger pointing going on at the regatta over the correct driver being used as half weight and we can eliminate and simplify the rule with a single weight for the entire crew. I suggested something around 1,650 lbs. and be done with it.

To be honest I'm fine with the long standing crew (Cat. 1) part of the deal but it seems "long standing crew" needs to be more clearly defined. I hope that clarifies what I am proposing. Thanks-Mark.

Mark, (sorry I did not make the BEC connection. As one of the newest owners it is hard to decipher who some of these authors are, hence my Chuck Tango name.) I agree that people push the limits of the rules and then "didn't know" that I couldn't do that. Most of us understand and follow the rules. This is an owner/drivers class while enabling owners who can't/don't want to steer have a class approved option at a loss in crew weight. In my NE area we have a total of one boat not owner/helmed and one more boat owned by more than one person, so we don't seem to have the problems seen in other areas. It is great to introduce new people to the class and steering a boat is fun. When I started racing on a 36.7, I joined the class to be a legal helmsman. As a regular member of a crew and an associate class member, when we decided to lose the owner/driver credit, I steered 2 boats occasionally before I bought mine. Guest helming shouldn't be expected at a class championship. At least one boat racing in the NAC asked for permission to have people who were not class members as helmsman. One of these owners is the one of the best helmsman I have sailed next to. The rules are very clear now and over the last 3 seasons I have inquired about the wrong person on the helm at least 3 times. Stop finger pointing because if there is ever a question, it needs to be aired and cleared up right away.
1650 assumes the owner/driver weighs about 200 pounds to keep everything even. We already race with 10 crew on our boat and are usually underweight. The weight limit has already been increased once or twice before. Perhaps it is time to race with the rules in place, at 1550 with the lightest owner credit when one of the owners aboard is steering. Most boats are sole-owned and I usually tell people that want to steer one of these boats to buy thier own. That's what I did so I can steer and I am not giving it up except in a distance race, unlike my brother who likes his class legal crew to steer when they have room to go full weight. If we give up the weight credit, the light owners will have more of an advantage (weight in the back of the boat has to be slower). (and Ploch doesn't have to steer the boat to have it win. Other owners are just as good at helming.)
Any other reasons to lose the owner/driver weight credit? Chuck

[Peter Wenzler]

I believe that the existing 1/2 weight owner-driver credit is good for our class when the rule is properly applied. I like the idea that each competitor is encouraged to have the owner drive by the presumed advantage this weight credit provides.

The 1/2 weight credit does not apply if someone other than an owner drives during a race of less than 25 miles.

The "finger-pointing" at the 2009 NAC regatta is a direct result of the improper application of the 1/2 weight credit.

Class leadership had recently advised me as follows given the circumstances: 'A protest of the offending boat - for not following Class Rules 3.4 and/or 7.1 - is the best way to stop this from happening.'

If the proper implication of the 1/2 weight credit is not already crystal clear to each and every owner in the class then I suggest that we craft language in our rules to make it so.

I feel strongly that as an owner I am personally responsible to know and understand the application of our class rules and to ensure that my boat is at all times in compliance.

I also feel strongly that we as class members should take it upon ourselves to be a self policing class. Meaning that if any of us is aware of a situation that is not in compliance with the class rules that we should bring the matter to the immediate attention of the owner of the non-compliant boat and not expect the class officers to have to do the work for us. I think alot of the growing pains that our class has experienced in the past few seasons could have been avoided with this more direct approach. Example: Peter, please show me in the rules where you are allowed to sail with a blooper?

[Myouri II]

Can someone explain why a heavier owner should be able to sail with heavier crew then a lighter owner? There is at least a 40 lbs difference between the lightest owener and the heaviest.

[OC 103]

+1 on the owner drives. Not saying any names but, never have I seen this one particular boat in the NE be steered by the owner.

[jdougherty]

chuck tango, on Sep 2 2009, 01:22 PM, said:

. This is an owner/drivers class while enabling owners who can't/don't want to steer have a class approved option at a loss in crew weight. .)

When someone other then the owner drives the boat it is not an owner driver class. The question is do we want to be an owner driver class?

[Claudio Martin]

jdougherty, on Sep 2 2009, 07:47 PM, said:

When someone other then the owner drives the boat it is not an owner driver class. The question is do we want to be an owner driver class?

I like the current rule, although it should be absolutely clear about the 50% weight. Still, the challenge is defining "regular" crew. There are 4 crew who have sailed with me for the past 6 years on Critical in all the Macs and major regattas. Others have done 1 or 2 regattas for the past 2 or 3 years. But they are not all my "regular" crew for local club racing. I also think immediate family should be considered equivalent to "owner".

Rules already make specific requirements for national level regattas (i.e. ISAF classification), so one option might be to have strict(er) owner-driver requirement here as well. But maybe for regional events (like NOOD) the rule could be more liberal (i.e. like the current one). Having the current rule has actually improved my driving skills, I think - one of my crew (who meets the 3.4 requirements) drove some races or legs in past NOODS in conditions where I was struggling. Seeing how he drove helped me with my technique. We could do that in a practice session, but a real race, with lanes to protect, etc make a difference.

Non-owners could also drive in club races, etc although those may not be OD.

I definitely would not like seeing an increase in the max weight; it's hard enough already finding 9 guys.

[FourScotts]

jdougherty, on Sep 2 2009, 04:47 PM, said:

When someone other then the owner drives the boat it is not an owner driver class. The question is do we want to be an owner driver class?

YES!
That is one of the main reasons I bought this boat.